Game v.s. Show

Sadieblues wrote:

Ok so let me ask you this what makes a dog truly game the fact that he dies in a ring? That is the trueness of game? And do you think that just because your dog comes from a game bloodline that makes him/her truly game?

gameness is a dog that wont stop even when it is being badly injured/killed.It is a trait that goes against the laws of nature and has to be selected and bred for,gameness makes no sence from the point of self preservation,its a man made trait.

Okay, I know I'm dukin' it out with some guys that are pretty into this(lol), but I will say just because you've read a coupe of stories about a couple of dogs that were supposed to be labeled curs and the owners really wanted to test the limits does not mean that this applies to every dog of the old day. In todays world a roll IS 5 minutes, the handler wants to see that the dog is game and will not back out but at the same time does not want to inflict so much damage on the dog that it'll not succeed in the up coming weeks (6 I believe). They will not find out what level of gameness that dog possess until it's first match, and the dog is not going up against a CH in it's first few matches either(why would they).

Sadie, I think that the incodent that you're speaking of was purely innocent pray drive. When you have a dog that is game you'll know it. But to say that a dog isn't game because it hasn't rolled is a bold statement. We seem to be confusing game with a high level of gameness. What level my girls are on I have no idea, and I never will. But I know from my experiences with them over the years that they will not back down or stop when it hurts. I don't think that I would have to "pick up", but then again my dogs will never see a scratch line.

keith wrote:

Sadieblues wrote:

Ok so let me ask you this what makes a dog truly game the fact that he dies in a ring? That is the trueness of game? And do you think that just because your dog comes from a game bloodline that makes him/her truly game?

gameness is a dog that wont stop even when it is being badly injured/killed.It is a trait that goes against the laws of nature and has to be selected and bred for,gameness makes no sence from the point of self preservation,its a man made trait.

See I always thought that a dog or animal is born in with these traits your speaking of. They are instincts that an animal already has. Kind of like when a tiger chases his prey even if he is injured in the fight he will fight until the death because that is the way nature intended it to be. And in dogfighting the human through their own tactics brought out in the dog what nature has already instilled in them.

Hey this stuff is deep if you really look beyond the whole image of 2 dogs in a ring going toe to toe in a bloody match. If you can get past the disgust of that to really talk about what it means you can kind of try and understand the whole sport. And I don't agree with it in any shape or form. But from what I understand this is the apbt history so it must be accepted wether you like it or not.

RedDoggy wrote:

Okay, I know I'm dukin' it out with some guys that are pretty into this(lol), but I will say just because you've read a coupe of stories about a couple of dogs that were supposed to be labeled curs and the owners really wanted to test the limits does not mean that this applies to every dog of the old day. In todays world a roll IS 5 minutes, the handler wants to see that the dog is game and will not back out but at the same time does not want to inflict so much damage on the dog that it'll not succeed in the up coming weeks (6 I believe). They will not find out what level of gameness that dog possess until it's first match, and the dog is not going up against a CH in it's first few matches either(why would they).

Sadie, I think that the incodent that you're speaking of was purely innocent pray drive. When you have a dog that is game you'll know it. But to say that a dog isn't game because it hasn't rolled is a bold statement. We seem to be confusing game with a high level of gameness. What level my girls are on I have no idea, and I never will. But I know from my experiences with them over the years that they will not back down or stop when it hurts. I don't think that I would have to "pick up", but then again my dogs will never see a scratch line.

I agree I could easily say Know one here should speak on gameness unless they were personally involved in the sport at one point in their life. Because who better than to talk about it than a person who has lived it. But I wouldn't make that statement because a person can only ASSUME or base his or her opinion on what they have heard read or seen somewhere or expireneced with their own dog.. but to expeirence it first hand actually being with that dog in the ring that there brings it to another meaning and IMO is the true understanding of gameness. Does that make sense? So unless we have any former DF in here all we can do is put things into perspective and try to understand through our own research.

not to put my self in the "box" but i have seen a lot af "SHOWs" and i've seen a few of the great dogmen and there studies. A dog is tested on gameness way before it's first match. You can't truely say that you can find out how game they are in the matches unless they are constanly the underdog and the go the distance in a few of them a ACE can get in there and just barnstorm a dog "RUN OVER" Back yard incidents can show you that your dog has a little fire the fight needs to have some biting going on not just wrestling . Sadie your comment about to say a dog isn't game because it hasn't been rolled isn't bold nor the truth he just hasn't been tested. people pick up for several reasons one being that there dog is showing some promise and they wanna let him grow a little more. believe it or not some pick up out of love....I've seen grown men and women cry telling the dog as they pick it up good job good job you'll get em next time. You have to know the NC is a dog fighting cespool but it's true we have had some great dog men and there dogs live around the corner for years. When you get ready to scratch a dog that dog should be trying so hard to get out your hands that youcan barely hold him. I'm not a former DF but i can admit to being a Former watcher and traveling spectator!!!!!! I said read a book because we are talking about history here the word gameness was brought about a while ago and they knew what hit ment so you read the definition of the word and how they used it through out the book and you should be able to get a wrap on what it means. IMO i have good credibility on speaking what the word means and it sounds like Keith has been around the block as well. I'm going to T.G's house soon and i will bring this question up to him!

I'M SPEAKING HISTORY HERE!!!! I DON'T CONDONE MATCHING YOUR DOGS (FIGHTING)

I can respect that carter

RedDoggy wrote:

In todays world a roll IS 5 minutes, the handler wants to see that the dog is game and will not back out but at the same time does not want to inflict so much damage on the dog that it'll not succeed in the up coming weeks (6 I believe). They will not find out what level of gameness that dog possess until it's first match, and the dog is not going up against a CH in it's first few matches either(why would they).

Theres no level to gameness there are gamedogs and ones that arent thats it,and you cant test for gameness in 5 minutes and for some reason it sounds like the info you've got has come from the "off the chain movie"[with the 5 min roll and the 8 week keep],again a roll is a game test,you definetly can see if a dog will cur in 5 min but you cant see if the same dog might just quit at the 30 min mark just because it wouldnt at the 5 min mark.

RedDoggy wrote:

I get info from doggers in my neck of the woods and I found it funny that the exact same was said in that documentary. Keith, you and TC are contradicting eachother. You say it ain't game if the dog has a quit or doesn't fight to the death while Carter says he has seen pick ups a number of times that were out of love. So if you're picking up are you not interupting this so called test of gameness. BTW, fighting to the death and inflicting maximum punishment on the dogs contradicts the rules by the dogmen of old. Seems odd that the sport was glorified and demand so much respect because it was different back then but to me it doesn't sound one bit different. So lemme get this right Kieth, you define gameness as a dog that won't quit untill it dies. Okay that makes sense, but if a may add... Animals do have emotions and one of them is fear and eventually an animal is going to fear more pain. That being said, I don't think it's politicly correct to label a dog as "not game" or a "cur" because it had to quit at some point in it's life. Honestly, find me a dogman that NEVER had a dog quit on him after it had been tested time and time again.

I think you are looking way too deep here.....I think me and keith are pretty much on the same page. You don't have to fight your dog to the death to prove he is game. The match isn't a lets see if he is game that part is done before you contract a fight. A pick up is like throwing in the towel so to say...the fighter is still going across the ring but he is getting pounded hence the fighter isn't quiting but the trainers want him to fight another day. Chalk it up as a lost rather than clarify dead game (fight to the death)...pretty much all dogs will quit at some point the key is to get the dog all the W's it can within it's prime and only you will know if the dog still has it.

"pretty much all dogs will quit at some point"

Thats exactly the oposite of Keith is saying. But maybe I AM looking too deep into it. Basically I have formed my opinion on gameness from my own experience and what I have read as you have done the same, too bad we didn't all read and see the same stuff but if we had we wouldn't have anything to bring to the table. Thanks alot guys, this discussion has been stimulating and fun!

Damn RedDoggy has jumped the wall...ROFL just joking

Reddogy,fear isnt a emotion,it's one of the most primal insticts in the animal kingdom.As for a game test,dogs are pushed to the point of self sacrifice but picked up before they go to far,and in a contracted match a dog that has been proven game can also be picked up to save its life since it still may be a good producer of dogs that are also game,a dead dog can not produce anything.
I dont believe gameness is really open to ones interprtation either,gameness is gameness,If it only means high drive and heart then it means nothing,since all breeds have individuals within them that can fit this desciption.
I personaly dont care much about gameness but i do realize what it is.
Ill take a dog with a high drive and alot of heart,thats all i personaly need.
Also i believe fear is not something to be found in a good game dog,it's the complete lack of fear and self preservation that makes them game.

keith wrote:

Reddogy,fear isnt a emotion,it's one of the most primal insticts in the animal kingdom.As for a game test,dogs are pushed to the point of self sacrifice but picked up before they go to far,and in a contracted match a dog that has been proven game can also be picked up to save its life since it still may be a good producer of dogs that are also game,a dead dog can not produce anything.
I dont believe gameness is really open to ones interprtation either,gameness is gameness,If it only means high drive and heart then it means nothing,since all breeds have individuals within them that can fit this desciption.
I personaly dont care much about gameness but i do realize what it is.
Ill take a dog with a high drive and alot of heart,thats all i personaly need.
Also i believe fear is not something to be found in a good game dog,it's the complete lack of fear and self preservation that makes them game.

Great point Keith and I'm glad you were able to articulate it so well!

It's in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. Even GRCH and ACEs are going to be questioned. DG dogs will still be questioned. Depending on the circumstance. One guys "game dog" is another's lucky dog. The theory that I tend to lean toward is that it is a goal, not something that can be achieved. If a dog destroys everything he sees, some will say he's never proven a thing because he's never been truly matched into a dog of the same caliber. If a dog never has to go past the 1:00 mark, they will say he's never truly been in a position to prove it. Someone will always be breeding their dog based on their opinion of their dog's ability and people will always seek certain dogs based on their own personal opinion of that dogsability. It's the intention of the breeding that makes a dog game bred. No APBT should be bred without some reasonable confidence that he will better the most basic fundamental of the breed. The pursuit of gameness. To say that a dog is game because he pulls hard or works a springpole is just rediculous. There is only one way to test for or prove it and that's by putting him in the position of deciding between continuing or self preservation. The misunderstanding of the term is what gets pet quality dogs hurt or killed every day and it's also what has turned an honorable competition into a rediculous bloodfest.

buzhunter wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. Even GRCH and ACEs are going to be questioned. DG dogs will still be questioned. Depending on the circumstance. One guys "game dog" is another's lucky dog. The theory that I tend to lean toward is that it is a goal, not something that can be achieved. If a dog destroys everything he sees, some will say he's never proven a thing because he's never been truly matched into a dog of the same caliber. If a dog never has to go past the 1:00 mark, they will say he's never truly been in a position to prove it. Someone will always be breeding their dog based on their opinion of their dog's ability and people will always seek certain dogs based on their own personal opinion of that dogsability. It's the intention of the breeding that makes a dog game bred. No APBT should be bred without some reasonable confidence that he will better the most basic fundamental of the breed. The pursuit of gameness. To say that a dog is game because he pulls hard or works a springpole is just rediculous. There is only one way to test for or prove it and that's by putting him in the position of deciding between continuing or self preservation. The misunderstanding of the term is what gets pet quality dogs hurt or killed every day and it's also what has turned an honorable competition into a rediculous bloodfest.

Hey Buz Great way of putting it now can I have my F key back??

LOL, yeah thanks for the loan.

Sadieblues wrote:

buzhunter wrote:

It's in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. Even GRCH and ACEs are going to be questioned. DG dogs will still be questioned. Depending on the circumstance. One guys "game dog" is another's lucky dog. The theory that I tend to lean toward is that it is a goal, not something that can be achieved. If a dog destroys everything he sees, some will say he's never proven a thing because he's never been truly matched into a dog of the same caliber. If a dog never has to go past the 1:00 mark, they will say he's never truly been in a position to prove it. Someone will always be breeding their dog based on their opinion of their dog's ability and people will always seek certain dogs based on their own personal opinion of that dogsability. It's the intention of the breeding that makes a dog game bred. No APBT should be bred without some reasonable confidence that he will better the most basic fundamental of the breed. The pursuit of gameness. To say that a dog is game because he pulls hard or works a springpole is just rediculous. There is only one way to test for or prove it and that's by putting him in the position of deciding between continuing or self preservation. The misunderstanding of the term is what gets pet quality dogs hurt or killed every day and it's also what has turned an honorable competition into a rediculous bloodfest.

Hey Buz Great way of putting it now can I have my F key back??

plus 1 Buzz that looks like something i can agree with

Well I guess i open a can of worms on this post but when i read all of this I tend to see alot of disagreement on this but it is illegeal t test and we really cant test for it. and i might be mistaken on gameness i guess i just dont know anything out of all the years i have been in this breed. i guess i mistake drive for gameness but guess what it works for me without testing. and around theses parts i have some really good bulldogs so i guess im doing something wrong/right?