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I have seen people that suggest the apbt can no longer be what it was or is without fighting. I've seen where it was said this dog cant be considered a pet. Also that this dog was created by being chained raised. Also it's been said that people who find information on this breed in books or call their "pit" a pet are stupid people. I talk to people like this more often then I talk to apbt owners. I face theses people at city council meetings. I met them when I was at our state capital speaking againist BSL. They come up acting as a apbt lover or owner and end up being on the other side of the battle lines. They try to trick you into saying the wrong thing or dismantling your defense by twisting your words. They love a crowd to win over. I have been cautioned by Apbt owners of old to choose your words carefully when these people surface. I do know what this dog was orginally breed for. I also see so many other breeds that no longer are used for their orginal use. Times change and people can create new sports for theses dogs to compete in. Gameiness isn't the willingness for one dog to go after another. Its definition is the willingness for a dog to complete a task that is asked of him no matter what the cost. The only two real faults this dog has, is that it is a canine ,carrying basic canine habits. Second, that this canine is incredibly strong. When those basic canine traits arise " lets say being territoral of its chain area or house" the effects of an apbt is going to be greater than a dachshund. If you visit with a real "die hard" dog breeder of any breed they will tell you they strive to preserve the "type" of a dog and lean towards that type with the attitude they want in their line. There also are thoses breeders who are simply competitors who are looking to fix their dogs faults in what ever their sport of choice is. I choose this breed because I see a very versitile dog. The apbt with the right disipline, socialization, and training can fit the roles from family pet to a working dog. Not all dogs have this range. Any breed of dog can be a pet but not all breeds are built to preform tasks. They can preform duties from working in therapy where this dog is expected to pull from it's own resources to assist with our needs at times with out a person using any words, to using brute strenght to move thousands of pounds simply when its told to. Its a shame that there are people that put this dog in a box and preach "that this is all this dog can do." I personally feel that the dog being able to work in this wide of a range has more brain capacity than those feeble minded people with their "boxes" Lets give those owners who found an area their dog can function a little credit instead of grief. We as owners have to always remember that all dogs are canine. They don't think like people. Always be alert to basic canine behavior. It would be nice if the world knew our dogs for licking too much or taking more than their share of the bed as we do. A dog is a product of it's environment. Think about it !!!

JMO, but the dog cannot be the dog without the box. The other competitions that owners use their dogs for ultimatley will create more spinoffs. Re-routing breeding programs to better compete in sports outside of the box changes the fundamental principles of the original dog. Not saying that it creates sub-par dogs, but it does create a dog that strays away from the original, thus creating a different dog. There is only one proving ground for gameness and that is dog on dog combat. All else is drive, imo.

Well I think considering we no longer want the breed in the box that we need to find a more suitable job for the breed and yes that will create a totally different look and attitude of the dog. I like my UKC style dogs the temperaments are much better then the original style dogs I once owned (as far as other animals go) I house all my dogs in doors so it is important that none are DA other wise I couldn't do this. I like a lil more bone on my dogs not bully or fat but more bone, my ideal female is no taller then 18in about 45-55 lbs , nice size chest like 10in maybe a inch or two more, doesn't have to have a large head I'm good with 18-19in head on her I don't want a she male I want a bitchy looking female. Now for my males I'd like him to be no taller then 18-19in at max 70lbs and that's pushing it with a size 21in head and nice chest. But that's just me

Yunno I pondered this for a while and come to the conclusion that since we can't breed for the box that doesn't mean it's not a APBT, Just because a St' Bernard is not used to help people pass the Swiss Alps doesn't mean it's not a St. Bernard..JMHO or how i see it..

That's very true but without a duty for a terrier type dog (as we all know terriers are high driven and need plenty of ways to burn that energy) you are asking for it become a trouple maker so to speak. I believe in all dogs having a duty that were bred to have one, this is not a companion type dog. This is actually a breed that IMO should be considered a working breed. These dogs can do anything we want them to do so why make them just house pets or just keep em out in the yard doing nothing. My whole point was we need to find a job for our breed to keep them busy and out of trouble plus show the positive side. I have one of my pups go on to a thearpy home another has been k-9 trained by a policeman so the way I see it there is nothing these dogs can't do and excell in period! I personally don't believe in them being used for bite work kind of messes with the fact that they were bred not to be human aggressive then you turn around and say okay bite boy bite nah that just doesn't fit to me. I know that's not how it's down but that's the jist of it to me. These dogs are naturally protective they dont' have to be trained to protect the family that's something they will do anyways long as they have been raised with love and care. I do agree it will always be a pit regardless but why not give the breed a job?

Well i think that you should keep the breed TRUE so breed for the box but channel that into a activity be it weight pulling or what ever but always breed for the box if you start breeding for dock jumping,weight pulling or what ever Thats when the apbt will change say for dog jumpers people will start wanting lanky leggy dogs and the pullers will start wanting the hulk look a likes so thats why i say don't change the way you suppose to breed. I say suppose because some breeders already are going for colors,head size, short stocky. so yes planning does go into there breeding but the wrong planning thats how you end up with

Please tell me that is not a real dog. That makes me want to cry.

Ya know there were SEVERAL breeds bred for fighting, I always wonder why they don't get the same crap Pits do.
American Pit Bull Terrier
Dogue De Bordeaux
Akita
Tosa Inu
American Staffordshire Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Terrier
Neapolitan Mastiff
Bandog
American Pit Bull Dog
Shar-Pei
Olde Bulldogge
presa canario
dogo de argentino
Boston Terrier
Boxer

BlueBullyBabe wrote:

Please tell me that is not a real dog. That makes me want to cry.

Ya know there were SEVERAL breeds bred for fighting, I always wonder why they don't get the same crap Pits do.
American Pit Bull Terrier
Dogue De Bordeaux
Akita
Tosa Inu
American Staffordshire Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Bull Terrier
Neapolitan Mastiff
Bandog
American Pit Bull Dog
Shar-Pei
Olde Bulldogge
presa canario
dogo de argentino
Boston Terrier
Boxer

These dogs still carry the traits and original breeding proto types unless showing but bad owners are still out there fighting dogs

My dogs don't look like that and that dog is a companion bred dog not one to do anything other then look like whatever the breeder had in mind when they created it. I don't classify myelf with people that breed like that regardless of what thinks or says we all do what we want to do and when I breed I keep the original imagine in mind the entire time yet I breed for what I want just like every body else out there breeding. We dont' have a true breed because of the simple fact people are too busy downing each other to pull together. Don't knock my dogs and I won't knock yours because NONE of the dogs are what the original dogs were period!

BTW if you think what I am saying is not true pull up a pic of one of the old game dogs and it's stats (height weight chest head etc) and then look at your dogs stats I guarantee they are far and between! The original style was bred to be small and able to move quickly with perfect agility, I don't see that in the leggy game dogs that are out today and most of them don't have the true bite of a pit anyway, I am not new to the breed nor ignorant on it's beginning or where it is now and that's all I have to say. To each his own.

Pits are getting done they way they are because it's allowed the standard is stretched out to include three breeds in one! We have dogs that are bred for what those consider the original style (game dogs) and then those that want a taller bull dog (bullies) and then those that want a dog that is close to the amstaff yet still has characteristics of the pit (show style). I can personally say there is something about each style that I like and dislike so in a sense at times I'm glad of the diversity and then at other times I realize it's also the down fall of the breed. I like the more amstaff look now where as I used to like the game look but I also think a standard and name should be given to each style and the three not allowed to be bred together but that's jmo.

redsky wrote:

My dogs don't look like that and that dog is a companion bred dog not one to do anything other then look like whatever the breeder had in mind when they created it. I don't classify myelf with people that breed like that regardless of what thinks or says we all do what we want to do and when I breed I keep the original imagine in mind the entire time yet I breed for what I want just like every body else out there breeding. We dont' have a true breed because of the simple fact people are too busy downing each other to pull together. Don't knock my dogs and I won't knock yours because NONE of the dogs are what the original dogs were period!

I hope you didnt think i was talking about you because i wasnt your dogs actually look good to me. But you seem to be very offended by my statement. I'm mainly talking about people that breed but they go for nothing but a look. No clue what the temperment of the offspring is gonna be or what they will be usefull for. There are people out there still very rooted in the game dog scene don't put on blinders and live in fantasy world it's out there just look at the level it's at Mike Vick =millionaire yet he was buying APBT from the woods in NC. So dogs with the original use are out there. I'm not knocking you man not at all please don't take it that way My dogs sire is Gamebred http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=256942 and does pretty good in weight pulling i was thinking out putting my boy out there to see what he had next year.

I'm not a guy my name is Christie but yeah I'll be honest I wasn't sure what your statement was directed to and took it as you were refering to me, I'm good at jumping the gun on things at times especially when it is my dogs they are my other kids and I get deeply offended where they are concerned. I do appologize for misunderstanding your point and thanks for taking the time to clear it up. I do agree with some points you have made. I started out breeding in NC so I know exactly what you are talking about.

redsky wrote:

Pits are getting done they way they are because it's allowed the standard is stretched out to include three breeds in one! We have dogs that are bred for what those consider the original style (game dogs) and then those that want a taller bull dog (bullies) and then those that want a dog that is close to the amstaff yet still has characteristics of the pit (show style). I can personally say there is something about each style that I like and dislike so in a sense at times I'm glad of the diversity and then at other times I realize it's also the down fall of the breed. I like the more amstaff look now where as I used to like the game look but I also think a standard and name should be given to each style and the three not allowed to be bred together but that's jmo.

hey you took my post to heart are you doing some of the breeding that i posted? From the description that you stated you like it sounds more staffy which is fine i like the look of both but as far as me owning i will only own APBT that i can honestly look at and study the ped even though they are doing a lot of bs with papers these days and trace my dogs. C.Mimms does a good job of pruning the BS from bonafide papers. Honestly if you are happy with what you have why are you getting so defensive.

From what I've read, the dog has changed aesthetically speaking throughout the history of the breed but still held true to its roots. A lot of famous dogs were nothing like the dogs from England. Look at Plumber's Alligator, or Furguson's Cetipede. Developing a game dog has nothing to do with looks. Form follows function. The amstaff is the perfect example of creating a spinoff breed by changing the purpose. Dogs like this are not like the original but there are true to type gamedogs out there. Maybe moreso overseas but the original dog is being still being preserved. To say that the dogs of today do not look the part of the dogs of old is irrelevant. Everything changes through the process of perfection. But when the purpose of the dog changes that's when the dog becomes a mere shell of its ancestors. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

buzhunter wrote:

From what I've read, the dog has changed aesthetically speaking throughout the history of the breed but still held true to its roots. A lot of famous dogs were nothing like the dogs from England. Look at Plumber's Alligator, or Furguson's Cetipede. Developing a game dog has nothing to do with looks. Form follows function. The amstaff is the perfect example of creating a spinoff breed by changing the purpose. Dogs like this are not like the original but there are true to type gamedogs out there. Maybe moreso overseas but the original dog is being still being preserved. To say that the dogs of today do not look the part of the dogs of old is irrelevant. Everything changes through the process of perfection. But when the purpose of the dog changes that's when the dog becomes a mere shell of its ancestors. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

right!!!! in no way am i knocking the dog sports of today hell they are legal which is a chance to ge the dogs in the positive spotlight i'm just saying that when you start breeding the dog to be a dock jumper thats when the transformation starts to take to the shell of the ancestors. There's a guy that breeds for weight pulling but he is currently using game dogs to pull he likes the drive that they have so you can still breed with old time intentions and stay TRUE to the dog but use that package in a positive sport.

buzhunter wrote:

From what I've read, the dog has changed aesthetically speaking throughout the history of the breed but still held true to its roots. A lot of famous dogs were nothing like the dogs from England. Look at Plumber's Alligator, or Furguson's Cetipede. Developing a game dog has nothing to do with looks. Form follows function. The amstaff is the perfect example of creating a spinoff breed by changing the purpose. Dogs like this are not like the original but there are true to type gamedogs out there. Maybe moreso overseas but the original dog is being still being preserved. To say that the dogs of today do not look the part of the dogs of old is irrelevant. Everything changes through the process of perfection. But when the purpose of the dog changes that's when the dog becomes a mere shell of its ancestors. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily.

Trust that I could careless how one feels about my breeding program! If you are not helping care for or feed my dogs then it really doesn't matter to me what you think or feel at the end of the day lol. While I did jump to the defensive don't think it was because I felt guilty by any means because that's def. not the case lmao. It was because as I stated these are my other children and if I ever feel like they are attacked in any way I attack back period. BTW back in 05 I was also one of those oh i'll never own nothing but the true style pit but until you own one of the other types your just blabbing off. I love my UKC dogs just as much as I loved my game dogs and maybe even more so considering I haven't gotten another game dogs since I added a UKC show style dog on another note I've had the show style that was just as driven if not more so then some of these supposed game dogs these days! Like I said before I choose my current style because I LOVE the total dog, the temperament, look, ability the entire package!

Buz hunter totally agree!

redsky wrote:

BTW back in 05 I was also one of those oh i'll never own nothing but the true style pit but until you own one of the other types your just blabbing off. I love my UKC dogs just as much as I loved my game dogs and maybe even more so considering I haven't gotten another game dogs since I added a UKC show style dog on another note I've had the show style that was just as driven if not more so then some of these supposed game dogs these days! Like I said before I choose my current style because I LOVE the total dog, the temperament, look, ability the entire package!

well to each there own! I'm glad you love your dogs.

Not meaning to disrespect anyone but the dog you love today would not be that dog without the box. His loyalty, intelligence, and drive not to mention looks came from dedicated dog fighters trying to make their dog perfect the old timers were not like the thugs you see today it was pure commitment and my dad was an old time dog man who I have seen tear up because of the loyalty and courage of his dog in south texas and louisiana it was a family lifestyle everyone from women, kids, the mayor and the preacher attended matches and your best pit dog was also your familys pet and pride. Just don't see how you can say you love the product but despise the game. think about what you are saying.