Who Made Who ?

It's no secrect that historical dogger's have bred some memorable gladiators. My question to you is do you think the doggman made the dog what it was? Or did the dog make the dogger who he is remembered for today? Or both? Many fanciers of the breed tend to give alot of credit to these old doggman .... Explain your answer.

I voted both for the simple fact that these dogs already posessed the the gladiator trait before the so called dogmen of old perfected their skills in the box..

It's a no brainer IMHO..

I have to say that the doggman made the dog, because even though the trait of gameness was there, it was the doggman that brought it about, and provided the necessary motivation for the dog to perform.

For example, people have said many times that a dog can turn hot until they reach up to 4-5 years old, so let's say a doggman tested a dog at 18 months, and thought it wasn't worthy to keep, and spared its life and gave it away to a family member, or a friend of a friend. Well what if that dog did possess the game trait, and it just didn't come about until it hit, let's say 3 years old. That owner, not being a doggman, would allow for that game traited dog to remain as a family pet, working dog, whatever they did with it, etc... It would be the doggman that could make that dog a champion.

NesOne wrote:

I have to say that the doggman made the dog, because even though the trait of gameness was there, it was the doggman that brought it about, and provided the necessary motivation for the dog to perform.

For example, people have said many times that a dog can turn hot until they reach up to 4-5 years old, so let's say a doggman tested a dog at 18 months, and thought it wasn't worthy to keep, and spared its life and gave it away to a family member, or a friend of a friend. Well what if that dog did possess the game trait, and it just didn't come about until it hit, let's say 3 years old. That owner, not being a doggman, would allow for that game traited dog to remain as a family pet, working dog, whatever they did with it, etc... It would be the doggman that could make that dog a champion.

You have a valid point..

NesOne wrote:

I have to say that the doggman made the dog, because even though the trait of gameness was there, it was the doggman that brought it about, and provided the necessary motivation for the dog to perform.

For example, people have said many times that a dog can turn hot until they reach up to 4-5 years old, so let's say a doggman tested a dog at 18 months, and thought it wasn't worthy to keep, and spared its life and gave it away to a family member, or a friend of a friend. Well what if that dog did possess the game trait, and it just didn't come about until it hit, let's say 3 years old. That owner, not being a doggman, would allow for that game traited dog to remain as a family pet, working dog, whatever they did with it, etc... It would be the doggman that could make that dog a champion.

I agree as far as foundation is concerned these doggamn laid the foundation for the breed. Without them there would be no apbt. But on the other hand I think the dogs themselves stand out in the breed today because of their preformance doggman are well known for their champion fighter's and what those dogs did in the box and how many champions they went on to produce in their offspring each dogfighter had that one prized champion that stands out today in the minds of fanciers all over the world .I guess it could go both ways. I was just curious to see what some of you would say and why.

i said both..because as was said the dogs already had the warrior spirit and i would say gameness aspect to them from way back in the bull baiting days..a dog would have to have some game( pre pit era) to go after a bull thats 2000 lbs....and not give up even despite great injuries...but the dogmen had this quality already present in the dog.. and i feel they enhanced it in the pit through selective breeding...i feel if it werent for the great old dogmen we wouldnt have this breed as is...but i truly believe they had an awsome specimen to begin with...jmo.
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