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American Pit Bull

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 APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED

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Sadieblues
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PostSubject: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:29 am

Ok so I find this to be very puzzling the amstaff and the apbt would you say they are the same dog? While the purpose of the breeds today may have changed it seems to me back when colby began his line his dogs looked more amstaff were amstaffs fighting dogs back when?. I have even seen some of his dogs registered as american stafforshire terrier's and weren't colby's dogs box dogs? I would be curious to hear what some of you may think. In my opinion I see them as the same dog. What is the real difference? I hear some people say well amstaff is more of a show dog? Does this mean that amstaffs cannot compete in weight pull and agility and still excel as a working dog? Seems to me the amstaff started out as a working dog only the AKC wanted to seperate the dog from the fighting image. But how would that change the way the dog was orginally bred when the sole purpose of the breed was to fight. That is not something that just goes away even if the AKC wanted it that way right? To me it seems to be more of an image thing that went on with the registries but I can't see how that would make a seprete breed when orginally they were the same breed. Sorry but I find that to be CROCK OF .... PFFFFT LOL



Introduction


Sixty years ago a delightful gang of kids romped across movie screens accompanied in their antics by their faithful dog Petey, a sturdy white pooch with a colored patch over one eye. Petey performed a remarkable array of tricks to help the kids in and out of scrapes -- all in all, he was the consummate childrens' pet.
The original Petey was Lucenay's Peter, a purebred dog registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the United Kennel Club and as one of the 50 original Staffordshire Terriers accepted into the American Kennel Club. Whichever breed name is claimed for Petey, one thing is certain; today this dog could not be kept within many city limits without facing arrest and euthanasia. American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are outlaws by city ordinance as vicious dogs.
The American Pit Bull Terrier has a long history as a dog of the common man, and it is from his basic stock that the AKC's AmStaffs and Staffs developed.

History


In 1835 the British Parliament outlawed bull baiting, a sadistic gambling game in which bulldogs were used to attack and harass bulls brought to market with the dubious intention of tenderizing the meat. The dog would assault the bull, avoid the stomping hooves and slashing horns, grab a tender nose or ear, and hang on until the bull collapsed. Commoners and royalty alike sought diversion from the violence and diseases of their day by attending these bloody spectacles until a public outcry forced Parliament to take a stand.
Once bull baiting was banned, dog breeders who appreciated the fierceness, courage, and tenacity of the bull dogs turned their attentions to breeding dogs for dog fighting. They began with the bull dog, mixed in some terrier blood, and produced the Bull and Terrier, a dog that met all of their expectations. The Bull and Terrier was bred for aggression to other dogs, unrelenting bravery, a high pain threshold, a willingness to fight to the end, and an affection for people.
Bull and Terrier dogs came to the US in the early 1800s as all-around farm dogs and frontier guardians. Samuel Clemons featured a pup of this breed in his short book The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County.
The United Kennel Club recognized the Bull and Terrier Dog as the American Pit Bull Terrier in 1898. Buster Brown shoes put its mascot in every shoe with the image of Tige, an American Pit Bull Terrier, to enhance its image as a sturdy, dependable shoe. RCA used Nipper, a pit bull of unknown ancestry, to illustrate the clarity of sound emanating from its phonograph -- after all, it could fool the loyal pit bull into thinking he heard "his master's voice" in person. The breed was used to illustrate American neutrality without fear in 1914, the toughness of Levi jeans, and as a"defender of Old Glory."
The AKC eschewed breeds called "pit bulls" until 1936, when it recognized the American Pit Bull Terrier under the alias Staffordshire Terrier, named after the miners of Staffordshire, England, who had a hand in developing the breed for the fighting pit. The name was changed in 1972 to the American Staffordshire Terrier to distinguish the breed from the Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England, the ancestor of the American dogs, which was recognized by AKC in 1974. The British version of the dog is 14-16 inches tall and weighs up to 45 pounds. The American cousin is 18-19 inches tall and weighs up to 80 pounds. UKC's American Pit Bull Terrier is preferred to range from 30-60 pounds with females generally, but not necessarily, smaller than males.
Staffs, AmStaffs, and APBTs produced by responsible breeders are bred for temperament. Many dogs of these breeds are therapy dogs; some do quite well in obedience, and one -- Bandog Dread HIC, VB, SchH 1, CD -- even has a herding title. Another, Solomon J. Grundy, is a service dog for quadriplegic owner Arvid Kuhnle of Saskatoon, Canada, and Bullitt, was shown on the 1985 Easter Seals poster with his owner, Gordy Ranberg of Genesee, Michigan.

So what happened?


The American Pit Bull Terrier and its AKC cousins had a well- deserved reputation as a loyal and trustworthy family pet in the early years of this century, but of late has been severely castigated as a vicious, man-killing beast, worthy of banishment from the cities, considered guilty with no chance of proving innocence in any case.
"Pit bull" is a generic and derogatory term that encompasses any of several breeds of dogs or crosses on those breeds. Pit Bull fanciers can be divided into several camps: conscientious breeders of the AKC-registered duo who often deny kinship of their dogs with the APBT; ethical breeders of the APBT who face squarely the slander heaped upon them by ignorant neighbors; and unethical breeders of all three breeds who still indulge in dog fighting or promote aggressive temperaments for illegal purposes. Dog fighting rings still exist--it's only been a few years since a ring with national ties was busted in New Richmond and Blanchester, Ohio--and inner city drug dealers often use the dogs to guard their drug supplies and cash.
To further complicate matters, those who still breed for fighting are not as careful to preserve the dog's strong instinct to bond with humans as the early breeders did. So, today "pit bull" is a pejorative term that strikes fear in the hearts of many and leads to the spreading of urban legends about dogs with locking jaws that exert 20 thousand pounds of pressure, unstable breed temperament, and overwhelming human aggression.
In fact, the well-bred American Pit Bull Terrier is a family guardian and protector; an intelligent and obedient pet; a sweet, even-tempered dog that serves well as a help-mate to handicapped owner and friend to small children; and a healthy, hardy dog that complains little and offers much to his family.
Unfortunately, it has been more important for legislators in many jurisdictions to prove to constituents that they have "done something" about community problems. Spurred on by media accounts of "pit bull" attacks described in lurid detail, these councils and commissioners have banned pit bulls in all their forms from their communities. Never mind that the owners are the ones at fault for harboring a vicious dog; never mind that few of these dogs actually bite people; never mind that the breed and its crosses are not always easy to identify. Just ban them.
So, many shelters do not offer pit bulls or any dog that might be part pit bull to be adopted. Insurance companies cancel house insurance if a pit bull is in residence. Neighbors mistake everything from Boxers to Pugs as "pit bulls". And those criminals who used pit bulls as protectors of their illegal activities switch to Akitas or Rottweilers.

The standard


The United Kennel Club standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier is rather sparse. The dog is square and powerful with a blocky head, prominent cheeks and jaw, and taut, muscular body. He has a deep chest, and a short, glossy coat of any color. His ears may be cropped or not. Size can range from 30- 50 pounds for females and 35-60 pounds for males. Although they are from the same stock and meet the same criteria as the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terriers cannot be registered as an AmStaffs, but AmStaffs are admitted to the APBT registry.
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:47 am

The APBT and AST have become two different breeds through selective breeding mandated by registries. They may have been the same years ago but are clearly two different breeds today. If we allow a registry hell bent on profiting on our stupidity, then we may as well let them lead us to beleive that all dogs are actually wolves. After all they were...thousands of years ago. How many people swear up and down that their 100 pound blue hippo is a "pit bull" just because the UKC gives then that title? Come on... This is what happens when proving your dog to be a bulldog is no longer legal or socially accepted.
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 11:52 am

buzhunter wrote:
The APBT and AST have become two different breeds through selective breeding mandated by registries. They may have been the same years ago but are clearly two different breeds today. If we allow a registry hell bent on profiting on our stupidity, then we may as well let them lead us to beleive that all dogs are actually wolves. After all they were...thousands of years ago. How many people swear up and down that their 100 pound blue hippo is a "pit bull" just because the UKC gives then that title? Come on... This is what happens when proving your dog to be a bulldog is no longer legal or socially accepted.


BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! clap

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 2:58 pm

IMHO Plain and simple there the same breed just pretty much like different bloodlines one bred to be pretty the other bred for performance. Over time they are changing and everything yes but they are still the same breed. That's just like the difference between show and field with hunting dogs they are still the same breed just bred for different purposes.
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 6:26 pm

Admin wrote:
buzhunter wrote:
The APBT and AST have become two different breeds through selective breeding mandated by registries. They may have been the same years ago but are clearly two different breeds today. If we allow a registry hell bent on profiting on our stupidity, then we may as well let them lead us to beleive that all dogs are actually wolves. After all they were...thousands of years ago. How many people swear up and down that their 100 pound blue hippo is a "pit bull" just because the UKC gives then that title? Come on... This is what happens when proving your dog to be a bulldog is no longer legal or socially accepted.


BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! clap

Is that all you got ??? Common you can do better than that hide groovy nunchucks
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 6:34 pm

buzhunter wrote:
How many people swear up and down that their 100 pound blue hippo is a "pit bull" just because the UKC gives then that title? Come on... This is what happens when proving your dog to be a bulldog is no longer legal or socially accepted.


Agreed....
hense the word "pit". T i know you wanna talk about bullies in the box but the fact is that the APBT was not created that large and the smaller the more performance comes out. Yeah, there were some flukes that were obvious cross breeds that were way bully but c'mon, how often that really happen? Take the millions of fighting dogs out there and line up the 20-25 pics you can find of big ass pit bulls and tell me they weren't flukes.

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 6:39 pm

No red the dog's I posted were not flukes they were champion grandchampion fighter's from what I have seen pitbull's from years handed down have come in all different shapes color's and sizes some being extremely large compared to what people will argue and say well that's not the standard of the apbt.. But who says so ? The registries because history show's something completely different. It's quite obvious that size in this breed does not matter when you step outside the ukc/adba/akc ... Game dogs were not bred to the registry standards they were bred to their own standards by the DF...
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 6:48 pm

So are you saying that the APBT is an inconsitant mutt? The standard was pretty much the same before the registries. Unfortunaely, much like today, come a-holes cross bred what they thought was gonna win in the box. Look at dogs like Chinaman, reboy, ect and notice how they all looked the same. Then take a look at Bolio and tell me that looks like a pitbull. They had a good thing going and other ppl just couldn't stand to lose so they watered it down. Now the reg standards allow these dogs to be much larger than they were. But I'll tell you who the real champs in the box are in todays very illegal world.... The small and medium framed dogs, they run circles around those big monster looking dogs. I mean, this is exactly how the AmBull dog was created, ppl thought they could improve perfection, and what did they end up with? A hunting dog! I say fluke because there were some big and wrongly bred pitbulls and sometimes they actually won against the small CUR dogs. Put a big one against a big one and a big one is gonna win. Most matches are set between dogs of equal size with equal abilities, so naturally one of two is gonna comeout victorious.

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 6:55 pm

I am saying the apbt was clearly cross bred many times throughout histroy creating different linage sizes color's ect... And game dog's are NOT bred to the standard's of the registry's those flukes your talking about don't need anyone's approval because they did their job and their record was proven in the box. And there were many gamebred dog's who were bred large size does not matter in the box it's all about the gameness heart and willingness to go all the way to the death.
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:03 pm

Size means alot in the box, not everything, but alot. Take my Bandogge, she's gonna be aggro and DA for sure. Ok, she's also gonna be 150lbs. Compared to Sweet Pea she'll be a monster. Now say I did something stupid like left them outside unattended all day and they got into it. Well Sweet Pea WILL not stop fighting putting Raven into a possisition where she has to.... Raven will kick the shit outta Sweet Pea for maybe about 10minutes, maybe the next ten minutes is gonna be an even match. After that Raven is f***ed! Her size limits her ability to continue for long periods. The bigger they are the harder they fall. If I fought a big fat dude, he might pound on me for a hot minute, but he;s gonna lose his breath while I'm still all over the place. Think about it. This is what conditioning and AGILITY is all about. These fights rarely ended quickly

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:06 pm

so than I guess size pertains to everything in the world then right? Because the notion is the bigger the better? So are you saying that size does not have it's advantage's at all in the box I say it does to some extent and it's been proven that it can as well unless we were there we can't discredit these dogfight's we don't know if they were up against curs that's absurd to suggest otherwise.. My only point in bringing size into the equation is to show that apbt's as far as size goes really does differ in the breed. And I have proven my point!!!


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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:11 pm

Sadieblues wrote:
My only point in bringing size into the equation is to show that apbt's as far as size goes really does differ in the breed. And I have proven my point!!!


no, you have agreed to mine.....

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:16 pm

Well at least we have come to agree on that one major factor that size does differ in the breed and some are much larger and than other's has nothing to do with them being a fluke though it's all in the breeding program
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:17 pm

Oooooo! You wanna knuckle up LADY?

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 07 Sep 2008, 7:19 pm

lol sidelaugh take your best shot ..... hehehehe
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSat 18 Oct 2008, 9:11 pm

http://www.richardfstratton.com/main.htm

Although I have been often referenced as the authority on Going Light Barney, I must confess that I never even saw Barney in holds. I found it quite fascinating, however, that he was one of the most controversial dogs of which I ever knew. I think part of the reason for that fact was Barney’s flamboyant owner, who is still alive as I write this. Although not a bad fellow, he had a way of stirring up the dander of other dog men. Consequently, all of Barney’s accomplishments were always scrutinized with a jaundiced eye. Since I had my picture taken with Barney, a lot of people seem to think that Barney once belonged to me, but such was not the case, although I did own a daughter of his which I bred back to him. That breeding produced George, one of my finest all-time dogs from a pit dog perspective.

It is hard to believe now, but Barney was whelped way back in the sixties, so he is definitely an old timer. He was the product of breeding a daughter of Johnston’s fabulous Goofy dog to a Rascal bitch. That produced Barney’s mother, Penny, and she was nothing to write home about–possibly a cold bitch and a trifle shy. She was bred to Rootberg’s Booger, strictly on the basis of his being a pure Corvino dog. So it is not surprising that not much was expected of the litter, but it produced Barney and several females which were renowned for their gameness, one of them, Going Light Babe, winning a Best in Show down South in a losing effort!

Barney had a storied career. He had been farmed out to some guy in the inner city to raise and was rolled from the time he was six months old, something no educated dog man would do. After he killed Two-Dollar George, a highly valued pit dog in a pick up match when he was only a little over a year old, he was reclaimed by his owner, who called himself Larry Light in the pit circuit. He was matched into fast company down in Mississippi against a Carver dog and won handily in about twenty minutes. This was the convention which also featured Boomerang and the immortal Bolio. Bolio won best in show because he won over the dog with the highest reputation, a dog which was thought to be unbeatable.

The controversy comes from the fact that Barney was counted out in his third match in Dallas. Larry swore up and down that he was doped, as the dog didn’t know where he was, and he had lost his equilibrium for several hours. Whatever happened, Barney came back to win six in row against the best the other side could come up with. One match was raided and the dogs confiscated. This was before the felony laws, and the dogs were broken out of the pound in which they were held. The match was held, and Barney won in an hour and five minutes. Barney was dyed black and shipped to a preacher in New Mexico. Part of the reason for all of this chicanery was that Larry was suing the animal control people for losing possession of his dog!

Barney’s toughest match was against another ear dog, extremely well thought of, and the match went nearly two hours before Barney prevailed. That was back in the oil crisis days, in which you couldn’t plan a long trip, as you might run out of fuel. Larry and his cohorts loaded up a station wagon with several gallons of gasoline so that they could make the trip there and back without having to stop or having to worry about fuel. I was invited to go along, but I was not of a mind to travel in that rolling bomb! Hence, I missed my chance to see a great match. Barney usually had an easy time with his opponents, controlling them with ear holds until the dog was worn down, and then Barney went in for the kill. I think it was the "quit" in Dallas that made it possible for Larry to go on finding matches for Barney.

After the above mentioned match, a fellow named Jobe, who put out a pit dog magazine, did a cover story on Barney. He had been there at the match, and he dubbed Barney a "grand champion." That was the first time I had ever seen that term used. Now, he would not be eligible for the title because of the loss in his second match. Mitigating circumstances don’t count, and besides, Larry was never able to prove anything.

Barney was known more for ability than for gameness, but he was game enough to win, and the loss came under suspicious circumstances. Barney was an unusual Bulldog in that he had an aloof personality, in direct contradistinction to most Bulldogs. He won Larry’s wife over because he would sit up and do tricks on the chain or in the kennel run, but once he was taken out, his demeanor changed completely. He had achieved his goal, so the charm was gone, and he simply was off to do what he wanted. Larry, who was a real estate speculator who owned half the land in San Diego county, loved the deviousness of the dog. He was also delighted that his wife, who abhorred the pit dog game, was Barney’s stoutest ally–although she certainly never went to a match.

Barney was never open to stud, and he was never bred much, as Larry seemed to concentrate his breeding program on breeding dogs that were down from Penny and in breeding Barney’s sisters, in particular Babe. Larry was one of those guys who kept track of litters by naming all the pups with the same letter, but somehow one in this litter got named Scarlet. Although a fine pit dog, she escaped Larry’s ownership. Another game sister of Barney was Belle, who won several matches.

As for blue dogs, most of them are sought out today by those who want a dog for appearance. I have even heard it said that all blue dogs stem from Staf blood. Being of a skeptical nature, I tend to doubt that "fact." One of the best dogs I ever saw was a blue dog and his brother in a Las Vegas convention. They were both talented and game, but I was never able to ascertain their breeding–but they certainly seemed to have no Staf blood in them. Besides, the Staf standard calls for a black nose, so I doubt that would be the source of the blue dogs. In truth, there are probably a multitude of sources, as it seems to be a simple Mendelian trait.

Readers may be amused to learn that Heinzl once informed me that the last Stratton he knew was an African-American gentleman who had a strain of blue dogs. Again, he didn’t know the breeding on them, but Howard said they were as game a line as he had ever seen. And Howard was tough to please!

People with a little experience are quick to denounce Barney and the blue dogs. I would suggest a little caution in that respect. Barney may have not been the greatest dog of his time, but he beat some really good dogs. And not all blue dogs are alike.
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSat 18 Oct 2008, 9:14 pm

look at the pits from the 1800's and when the first took pictures they dont look like hippos yes they can be big but not like they do 90% of the so called blue pits are 1/2 breeds as well as a lot of other dogs with ????? blood lines
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 19 Oct 2008, 12:39 am

The thing is that people always have and always will breed bulldogs to their liking. Everyone trying to put their own twist oin the dogs to create the best ever. Saddest part about this is that nowadays, there are way too many people out there "improving" this breed (as far as they are concerned) with little to no understanding of the breed at all. The funny thing is that a lot of these so called breeders are taking dogs with great ability to be a bulldog and breeding out the very fundamentals of the breed. They call it improvement for a "new" purpose of the the dogs? I call it the de-evolution of the most amazing thing man has ever created. Get your own damn breed. Let's call 'em Staffs...
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 19 Oct 2008, 12:42 am

Oh, is that how it is Buz? I see. Now I know what's really going on, you showed your true colors man. LMFAO!

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 19 Oct 2008, 12:57 am

Huh? What did I say?
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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 19 Oct 2008, 12:59 am

Just messin' with ya bro.

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PostSubject: Re: APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED   APBT & AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME BREED Icon_minitimeSun 19 Oct 2008, 1:01 am

Haha. My man Red.... spank
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