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 History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

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Sadieblues
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PostSubject: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Fri 07 Nov 2008, 9:56 pm

History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS

In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he noteís that in the late 1930ís one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers werenít penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them canít stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in todayís blue dogs.

These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were
known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.

Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

In Richard Pascoeís book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.


Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 7:43 am

BLUE BLUE BLUE BLAH BLAH BLAH..... put some wins on your blue bitch and I'll let you give me a pup. Just playing, I know how you like to be rubbed even if it is the wrong way. Seriously though, good post. duh
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 2:54 pm

ok be proud of a dog that is totally aginst the foundation of our breed just like bullies
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 3:01 pm

littlecountry wrote:
ok be proud of a dog that is totally aginst the foundation of our breed just like bullies

Ummmmm ... color has nothing to do with it ... BLUE DOES NOT EQUAL BULLY GET THAT STRAIGHT!!! Blue has been and always will be an apbt color and if you don't like it buy another color dog

Does sadie look like a bully I dont think so

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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 3:11 pm

Sadie looks like a crazy bitch! LMFAO! hammer

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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 3:15 pm

I dunno, being an APBT lover or fancier and opposing AmStaffs, Bullies, or anything blue is retarded. I mean, I never see any APBT against American Bulldogges when the AB was supposed to be a hybrid pit to begin with. Okay okay, it's like a Dobie lover hating rotties because the rotty stemmed from the dobie and is somehow destroying the integrity of the breed. Honestly I'm sick of beating this dead horse and am ready to enforce The Pit rules like there is no tomorrow, so lets not go there today. duh

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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 6:28 pm

Ok well just an fyi this posting has nothing to do with american bullies if you read the story it was written about the history of Blue american pitbull/amstaffs so that's the first thing. Second it's not really a debating topic it was posted for people who have not seen it to read it for education purposes however I posted this in the pit because like stratton said many of todays game dogs lover's dislike blue dogs and seems like the color blue in pitbull terriers can be a touchy subject for some of you red dog owners so I felt I should post it in the pit because I knew someone would have something nasty say. But just a little known fact there were many old dogger's who HATED red dogs honestly like red said it's really pointless to beat a dead horse but I did think this was a good read for those who have never read it.


Last edited by Sadieblues on Sat 08 Nov 2008, 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 6:31 pm

Uh oh!!!! Someone let T loose, watch out. Hehehehehe!

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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 8:34 pm

Why, why, why do we always have to hear this shit???? Seriously, there are other topics. If you see a blue dog do something worth discussing, post it up.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 8:49 pm

buzhunter wrote:
Why, why, why do we always have to hear this shit???? Seriously, there are other topics. If you see a blue dog do something worth discussing, post it up.

You dont have to hear sh*t there is a thing called do not respond if you don't like what you read ignore and move on hell when you see BLUE AMSTAFF/PITBULL HISTORY as the title you can bybass it by not opening up the thread it's clearly obvious what this thread was about you choose to read it . I will post what the hell I want to and don't care how you feel about it nor do I need your approval.... Seriously stop whinning like a baby. It may not be of intrest to you but then again your 1 person on a public forum of 50+ members someone else may want to read it so if you don't like it tough sh*t move on to the next because I truly from the depths of my heart dont give a damn
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 9:56 pm

It was a good post T. But you are obviously just posting this shit up here for the sole purpose of trolling for an argument. Why you lowering yourself to "troll" status? Why stir up shit with the same old same old blue dog bullshit? As a moderator, you should be the one stifling these worthless arguments rather than starting them. You're not setting a very good example. repost
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 10:06 pm

It was not intended to agrue it was intended to educate if it upsets you thats your probelem there is nothing trolling about this article it's a great article IMO and you have no place or right to acuse me of trying to stir up a fight this after all this is the pit ? Is it not ??? If you can't handle it just don't bother responding it's very simple. It's a great article and I posted it for those who want to learn about the history of the american pitbull terrier and the color blue in the breed. You don't have to agree but there have been many times you have trolled the blue pitbull topic so don't go there buz you can dish it out but when there is evidence that suggests something else you get your panties in a bunch? Which one is it? I have been a member of these boards long enough to hear it all and I think this article was a great article about blue dogs and since I own one I feel it would be helpful to someone else if that's trolling well call me a troll. But I think we both know that I am far from one.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 10:36 pm

Regurgitating other peoples opinions is not educating. With all due respect, your attempts at educating people on these dogs are a little premature given the fact that you have never had any personal experience outside of raising house dogs. 75% of which have not hit one year yet. You have a lot to learn but not yet much to offer apart from copy and paste posting. Look,
answer my original question: WASN'T BARNEY A BRINDLE AND WHITE DOG? I would think that since you are in an authoritative position, you would have the answer to that question readily available. Well???
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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 10:51 pm

closing

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PostSubject: Re: History of Amstaff/Blue APBTS   Sat 08 Nov 2008, 10:52 pm

buzhunter wrote:
Regurgitating other peoples opinions is not educating. With all due respect, your attempts at educating people on these dogs are a little premature given the fact that you have never had any personal experience outside of raising house dogs. 75% of which have not hit one year yet. You have a lot to learn but not yet much to offer apart from copy and paste posting. Look,
answer my original question: WASN'T BARNEY A BRINDLE AND WHITE DOG? I would think that since you are in an authoritative position, you would have the answer to that question readily available. Well???


And what exactly do you do with your dogs ???? Please enlighten me Buz ?????? LMFAO have you ever taken your dogs to a show ? Are your dogs even registered ??? And I have owned more pitbulls than the 4 you know about just goes to show how much you DO know. And know I don't breed for fun in my back yard because I have more sense than that. I feel the article was educating written by someone who is educated enough on the breed to write the article to begin with. Your so backwards Buz you come on here telling me what I should and should not post yet I am regulating someones opinions ?????? Your the one crying about the fact I posted this article and 2 others IMO were great articles and telling me not to post them because YOU are tired of hearing something is just wrong you don't have a right nothing I posted in these articles was degrading So who is trolling now ??? OH btw barney was a brindle and white dog. I will nor have I ever claimed to know it all but I do know enough to talk about these subjects and I do know that I never posted these articles with any intention of trolling. Your just pissed off because there is actually some validity to what these articles say. You hate blue dogs and so anything positive written about them pisses you off well GET OVER IT.
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