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 THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG

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WOULD YOU SAY THE AMSTAFF AND APBT ARE THE SAME BREED
YES:
25%
 25% [ 3 ]
NO:
50%
 50% [ 6 ]
OTHER: PLEASE SPECIFY IN COMMENTS SECTION
25%
 25% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 12
 

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 7:45 pm

RedDoggy wrote:
The only thing the pitbull was bred for other than fighting, back in the day, was breeding....

"Although the precise origin of the APBT is not known, we can reliably trace its roots back at least one hundred and fifty years or so to England. During the late 18th and 19th centuries the sport of bull-baiting was very much alive and these dogs were bred to excel in this endeavor. The immediate ancestors of the APBT were Irish and English pit fighting dogs imported to the States. In America, these dogs were used not only as pit fighters, but also bred as catch dogs (i.e., for forcibly retrieving stray hogs and cattle) and as guardians of family."

"The history of the pit bull far predates the time when bans on bull baiting caused blood sport fanciers to turn to fighting dog against dog. The very name "bull" or "bulldog" gives us the clue as to what the original purpose of this breed was."

"Like all purpose bred dogs, the purebred pit bull can come in a variety of colors, sizes and builds. Some strains show a touch more terrier infusion; thin and racy, with narrow heads, they may weigh as little as 25 pounds. Others are small, but very stocky, showing a clear connection with the smaller, stockier strain known today as Staffordshire bull terriers. And there have always been large, more bullmastiff orientated strains. Some of these dogs can, in a pure state, reach into the nineties in weight."

"Farmers and ranchers traditionally bred and used their APBTs for protection, as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions.
Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking to include Search & Rescue (SAR), Agility, Protection, and Weight Pulls, as well as Conformation."

"The American Pit Bull Terrier is a working dog historically bred for a wide range of working disciplines due to their intelligence, high energy and endurance. In the United States they have been used as search and rescue dogs that save lives, police dogs performing narcotics and explosives detection, Border Patrol dogs, hearing dogs to provide services to the deaf, as well as general service dogs."

"These American Pit Bulldogs were used for all manner of work, including baiting, fighting, stock work, hunting, and farm dog. They were an agreeable animal, capable of extreme ferociousness but unwavering loyalty and gentleness towards humans. They were an animal-aggressive breed, but were routinely used in pairs to bait animals and hunt, so overt aggression towards others of their same species was not an extreme trait."

"The breed known as the American Pit Bull Terrier was selectively bred with the idea of it becoming the ultimate canine gladiator. But by virtue of the fact that so much of the breed was made up of versatile bulldog blood, the breed was also bred for a number of non-fighting activities, including those which the bulldog had been used for. Also, the traits bred for in pit dogs were surprisingly relevent in other arenas."


If you want to argue with all these breeders and historians, go right ahead, because they know more than I ever will and if you guys know more than them then I got nothing for you. My point still remains that the APBT was not ONLY bred and used for the task of dog fighting. It was, and STILL is, the most complete dog breed and was bred and used for many different purposes, not only fighting. Im not trying to take anything away from the history of this breed in the pit, but it is also unfair to disregard the facts that this is a working breed that wasnt exclusively bred for fighting but also for other functional jobs. These working dogs still carry on today just as they did in the past, with all the traits of its ancestors still in tact when bred correctly, and are proven to be worthy of the APBT title.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 8:00 pm

Touche..........

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 9:28 pm

Is there anybody here who would roll their dog for the privilege of calling it an APBT? If not, then are you basing calling your dog an APBT simply on what is in the pedigree? If your dog is an APBT because it has a nice ped, if you bred that dog to something similarly papered, would the offspring be APBTs even though mom and dad never saw the inside of the box?
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 9:41 pm

Nope. Would you roll a Kangal to call it a Kangal? What about a CO? No, the breed and stadnard has already been established.

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Mon 22 Sep 2008, 8:49 am

Well, ain't that strange...
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Mon 22 Sep 2008, 4:54 pm

Uh.... I think we mighta lost some data when the site was down lastnight....

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 23 Sep 2008, 2:46 am

Bump. This topic is in "The Pit" now so the pit rules apply.

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 23 Sep 2008, 3:00 am

Dangit, and I was just about to sling out a "yo momma." Razz
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 23 Sep 2008, 6:00 am

bahamutt99 wrote:
Dangit, and I was just about to sling out a "yo momma." Razz

awwwww, It would of been ON then....

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Wed 08 Oct 2008, 9:35 pm

**BUMP**

They were the same long ago but generation after generation of breeding for different things separated the two. You cant continue to breed a dog differently and call it the same.. I think the best way to describe them is that of being cousins..

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Wed 08 Oct 2008, 9:40 pm

I agree with that. Cousins, still different breeds.....

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Thu 09 Oct 2008, 12:38 pm

Well I don't get that, unless you mean distant cousins. Because when it comes to close cousins (which is what they are if we're having this much discussion about it), the blood is still pretty close. I mean just think about line breeding, the bloodline is there, and how many people salivate over one of the popular proven lines to be way over in the 4th generation, anyways?

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Fri 10 Oct 2008, 8:32 pm

Well, that's a matter of opinion. How long has this working breed been bred for anything other than workability?

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 11 Oct 2008, 5:27 am

That's why I prefer to simplify the whole thing. If someone is breeding a litter of APBTs with no intention of improving the original dog, then they are straying away from the original vision and the original purpose. Changing the job is not improving the same dog but creating a new one. Like I said before, true gamebred dogs are still being bred and worked all over the world. That kinda makes the whole "well, it's illegal now" argument irrelevant.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 11 Oct 2008, 11:12 am

No argument here Buz, I agree with you..

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sun 12 Oct 2008, 1:37 pm

OK, so here's a question. It's relative to the topic but could also be a new subject, so move it if you guys want to. How many generations does it take to establish a "type" of dog, and how many consistent breedings for that "type" would ultimately create a new breed? Today's AST is most definitely a very "typie" dog. They are all pretty much big, heavy boned, square dogs. I'd say 99% have not seen an ancestor in the box for many, many generations. What's the first thing you think about when you picture an AST? For me it would be the trademark symmetrical markings with the white neck, chest, socks and so on. (a bulldog with those markings is usually by chance, not by intention) They are usually built like statues as if they were bred to be permanently stuck in that "show dog" stance. While on the other hand, most pit dogs only share one common trait, gameness, or the pursuit of gameness. Sure they are all similar looking but each bloodline and each individual dog have their own look and type. They are not carbon copies of each other because the priority of the breeder is function, not type. So back to the original question, for you breeders out there; how long can you deviate from the original plan before it becomes a whole new plan all together?
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