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 THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG

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WOULD YOU SAY THE AMSTAFF AND APBT ARE THE SAME BREED
YES:
25%
 25% [ 3 ]
NO:
50%
 50% [ 6 ]
OTHER: PLEASE SPECIFY IN COMMENTS SECTION
25%
 25% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 12
 

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 7:06 am

buzhunter wrote:
Go get MPRO. Tell him to bring his ped with him. I gotta know what's behind this dog. If he can show me game dogs up close, I'll stand corrected.

It really should be you to invite Mpro since you're the one who brought up their dog, but I'll do it since you wont. Funny, though... You said you wouldn't call my dogs AmStaffs. But if you need gamedogs close up in the pedigree to be APBTs, then two of mine don't meet that standard.

Anyway, while we're waiting for Mpro to join the discussion, since you can identify an AmStaff versus an APBT based on looks, here's a gang of pics for you to play with. APBT or AmStaff? Have fun. :)

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 7:12 am

I am going to say 2,5,9,14,15,16,17,18,19 are amstaff LOL ....


Last edited by Sadieblues on Tue 09 Sep 2008, 7:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 7:13 am

BTW MPRO IS ALREADY A MEMBER HERE BBB INVITED HIM/HER IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 8:16 am

BTW .. Correct me if I am wrong here but can't you take an amstaff that is registered with the AKC and register him/her as an apbt with the adba/ukc and vice versa ? If I am wrong please correct me but I thought this could be done
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 9:23 am

I know several of those dogs but i dont have the time this morning to set down an point out whose who but I can say 13 is a cross bully/staff/apbt. That dog is named Fabel and she is off of Higdon's Kovu whom is half T-N-T and half RE and her mother is a cross of Webbs, Carver, Mason Hog, & Sorrells.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 9:48 am

Ok, ok ladies! You're right, I'm wrong. thumbsup Somebody turn the TV up...
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 10:04 am

Awww Buz and I thought you were gamebred??? your gonna just roll over like that? Come on Reddoggy Eric Marty Nesone someone help this man out .... LOL
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm

Well since I have been called out, I feel obligated to post something. I am unable to help out Buz though, since I voted "YES"
beer

Although, to Buz's credit on the King subject, I did not see anything "game" in his pedigree, but I'm not an avid ped reader:

Here's the link to the ped:

http://www.gopitbull.com/bloodline-discussion/8005-girl-has-skills.html

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 1:38 pm

awww your such a trooper nes Wink
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 4:08 pm

Jesus, took you long enough, Nes. I was running outta ways to push these girls buttons, lol. Anyway, I'm no pedigree expert either. Somebody know any of these dog and how many of them are dual reg? That should shed a little light.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 5:39 pm

MSK wrote:
I know several of those dogs but i dont have the time this morning to set down an point out whose who but I can say 13 is a cross bully/staff/apbt. That dog is named Fabel and she is off of Higdon's Kovu whom is half T-N-T and half RE and her mother is a cross of Webbs, Carver, Mason Hog, & Sorrells.

Thanks for sharing that. Someone posted that one on another board as an example of an RE dog that wasn't bully. I think she's beautiful.

Sadieblues wrote:
I am going to say 2,5,9,14,15,16,17,18,19 are amstaff LOL ....

Okay, here be the answers. About half the dogs I posted are old pit dogs from way back.

1.
APBT, CH Fitchs Diamond Jim

2.
APBT, Lar-San dog, which means he'd have some AST behind him. At worst a PitorStaff

3.
APBT, Williams CH Paladin

4.
APBT, Giroux CH Booger ROM

5.
AmStaff (I didn't note any of the AmStaffs' names, sorry)

6.
AmStaff

7.
APBT, GRCH Tudor's Black Jack Jr

8.
APBT, Loposay's Buster ROM

9.
AmStaff

10.
APBT, Loposay's Dubs

11.
APBT, Sarona Motorhead

12.
APBT, Tudor's Black Demon

13.
PitorStaff, see the quote at top. She has some RE blood behind her.

14.
APBT, don't remember name

15.
AmStaff

16.
APBT, Delihant's Paddy

17.
APBT, CH Captain's Thor

18.
AmStaff

19.
AmStaff

20.
AmStaff


Last edited by bahamutt99 on Tue 09 Sep 2008, 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : edited to add pics with names)
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 6:27 pm

Hey, if any Admins see this, MPRO says he hasn't gotten the confirmation email from this site.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 6:59 pm

I'm not showing that mpro signed up at all in the admin panel.... Tell him/her to give it another try and to check their spam box. I just set up a dummy account and it sent me the reply instantly.

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Tue 09 Sep 2008, 8:34 pm

bahamutt99 wrote:
MSK wrote:
I know several of those dogs but i dont have the time this morning to set down an point out whose who but I can say 13 is a cross bully/staff/apbt. That dog is named Fabel and she is off of Higdon's Kovu whom is half T-N-T and half RE and her mother is a cross of Webbs, Carver, Mason Hog, & Sorrells.

Thanks for sharing that. Someone posted that one on another board as an example of an RE dog that wasn't bully. I think she's beautiful.

Sadieblues wrote:
I am going to say 2,5,9,14,15,16,17,18,19 are amstaff LOL ....

Okay, here be the answers. About half the dogs I posted are old pit dogs from way back.

1.
APBT, CH Fitchs Diamond Jim

2.
APBT, Lar-San dog, which means he'd have some AST behind him. At worst a PitorStaff

3.
APBT, Williams CH Paladin

4.
APBT, Giroux CH Booger ROM

5.
AmStaff (I didn't note any of the AmStaffs' names, sorry)

6.
AmStaff

7.
APBT, GRCH Tudor's Black Jack Jr

8.
APBT, Loposay's Buster ROM

9.
AmStaff

10.
APBT, Loposay's Dubs

11.
APBT, Sarona Motorhead

12.
APBT, Tudor's Black Demon

13.
PitorStaff, see the quote at top. She has some RE blood behind her.

14.
APBT, don't remember name

15.
AmStaff

16.
APBT, Delihant's Paddy

17.
APBT, CH Captain's Thor

18.
AmStaff

19.
AmStaff

20.
AmStaff


Hey I did pretty damn good on my guesses Wink Yeah I was going to ask about Lar-sans beautiful line but I could see some amstaff somewhere I think it's the jaw line/heads that make's me see some amstaff with the lar-sans line either way beautiful
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Wed 10 Sep 2008, 6:00 am

Not those dogs. The dogs in that pedigree. Wink Any of those dogs dual registered as AST?
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Wed 10 Sep 2008, 6:03 am

said it twice, haha...
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Wed 10 Sep 2008, 7:12 am

buzhunter wrote:
Not those dogs. The dogs in that pedigree. Wink Any of those dogs dual registered as AST?

I wasn't answering your question because I didn't know the answer. LOL I know the Gaff dogs are considered ASTs by some, but as to whether or not any of those dogs are actually AKC-papered, dunno.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 5:29 am

buzhunter wrote:
The most important difference in these two dogs sharing the "pit bull" name is that one has been proven worthy of the honor and the other has been dubbed "pit bull" by the UKC. Not to take anything away from the AST, he's an awesome looking dog. Unfortunately for realists such as myself, looks are not enough. If I was involved in the show circuit, I could walk in the ring with that big impressive AST with a smile. But to put him to work in an honest contest would be embarrassing, no doubt. Breeding ASTs, IMO, is kinda like producing Corvettes with 4 cylinder engines and then claiming them to be "just as good" as the real deal. See?

Ok so it took me long enough to get here since everyone has been telling me my dog was being talked about on another board that I wasnt even on.

First off, BUZ, if you are going to steal my dogs picture off another forum and talk about it here about how he is "not worthy the honor of being an APBT", then the least you could do is invite me to the discussion like a real man.

With that being said, I am obviously not trying to hear that my dog is "dubbed a pitbull" and is only a "second-rate" AmStaff (no offense to AST owners, not my words). Does my dog come from direct game-bred lines? No, it doesnt. It comes from Showing and Working lines. Not AST lines, APBT lines. The closest thing to AST is the 2 Gaffs I have but they arent even fullbred Gaff dogs and they are generations back so the percentage is Very small. But the fact that my dog doesnt have any "fighters" in the last few generations means that he is less of an APBT? Your dog is more capable of function bc of gamier lines than mine? Dont you have any better theory to support your opinion? Obviously far back enough I have fighters in my ped but good breeders can keep ALL the traits of the APBT (athleticism, drive, intelligence, etc) while still breeding for more physical substance that can do well in the UKC ring. My dog has already won a few times for conformation and he has shown potential with the "backyard WP" I have asked him to do. You want to talk about an "honest contest", what exactly do you have in mind? My dogs sire is United Weight Puller, United Weight Pull Champion, United Weight Pull Versatile GRCH, pulling over 4400 lbs numerous times in just the last 2 years alone and recently he just blew away his own personal best but I dont have the exact number off the top of my head. Do you call that a "4 cylinder engine"? Does he need to have major DA for him to be accepted? Does he need to get into the box for you? He is usually well behaved but another "gamier" pit got into his space and he (mine) rolled him over and bit his front leg and was going for a wide open neck strike until I broke it up...Now is he "worthy enough" for you? My dog has excellent UKC conformation, he runs for miles and miles, he jumps high in the air, he has VERY high prey drive, he obviously has a good amount of DA, he is extremely intelligent and trainable, he has the genes of a GRCH WP, and would do anything I asked him to...so remind me again what is second-rate about my dog? What makes your dog SO much better than mine? What can your "real deal" do that mine cant do? I would really like to know.

At the end of the day, AmStaffs and APBTs come from the same dogs and depending on the breeding program can be basically identical or completely different. There is NO way to judge a dog from a picture and make an assumption about the performance of that dog. There is also nothing that an APBT can do that an AmStaff "theoretically" cant do if it was bred in that direction. Im sure there are Plenty (not the majority) of well bred AmStaffs that could outperform APBTs, even in the box. And if you want to start widdling APBTs down to the very gamiest of lines then you should also take into account the paper hanging that ALL the old dogmen used to do, they would throw ALL KINDS of different dog breeds into their breeding programs to create the ultimate champion, and they would NEVER give away their "secret recipe". So one could make the argument that the AmStaff is actually the purer-bred dog (not exactly my opionion, but interesting topic I think) closer to the original Bull and Terrier that the breed was basically created from.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 6:02 am

Well, I'm gonna leave it short and duck out on this.... Gotta stay neutral.
Take a look at the GSD. There is only one breed but there are two types, you have your type show dogs(which is functional) and you have your guardian(which is even more functional. The guardian styl excels ar police work and pp. Okay then you have the Neo, again two types. You have your typee wrinkled show dog and your PP dog, one is WAY more functional than the other. Just making a silent point.
Now the APBT and the AST are both wonderful breeds, but I see where this is all stemming from, the APBT is a functional dog and the AST is typee. The AST is fantastic in the ring and the APBT is in there dominating the WP world since it's functionality can no longer apply in todays world.

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 9:53 am

First of all, welcome to APB. Glad you finally made it. Edited. You can have it back. Does the absence of game bred dogs in your ped make your dog less of a pit bull? Absolutely. When you breed for a purpose other than the intended, you transform the dog, fundamentally into a different breed. The epitome of the word "pit bull" is a game bred pit dog. Anyone want to say otherwise? Sorry, but it's true. Has been from the start and it will be long after we're gone. The sport is not dead, it's alive and well all over the world. Show those dogs a little bit of respect by not professing that show bred dogs are "just as good". To tell me that a WP dog is just as much "pit bull" as a dog who has worked his ass off in the box just proves to me that you're more interested in the name and not so much in the breed. To say to me that you stopped your dog from cur-snapping and that makes him a bulldog tells me that you do not have a very firm grasp on the concept of a game dog. He rolled him over huh? Do you have any idea how many dogs have come up from an eternity on the bottom to win? Bit him on the leg, huh? Do you have any idea how many have scratched like freight trains on broken legs? What makes my dog better than yours? Never said she was. Apples and oranges, my friend. I guess we could have a running, jumping, WP, fashion show, growling and barking contest! Never said my bitch was "real deal" but if you have to ask what a "real" bulldog can do that a show dog can't then you have a lot to learn. What is second rate about your dog? Well, as far as bulldogs go, I'd say his family tree and the intention behind his breeding. As far as show dogs go, I'd say nothing. He looks to be top notch from my perspective, but it's not my thing so I don't know. Like I've said, the dog is absolutely beautiful. He blows away most of the show dogs I've seen. I "stole" his pic because I like the way he looks. As far as pretty dogs are concerned, he'd be hard to top. What you need to do is take off those rose colored glasses that the UKC sold you and just seek a little truth about the history of the dogs. They are not the authority on bulldogs. They are the advocates of irrational breeding practices. In closing, I gotta say that it never was my intention to insult you or your dog. I think that if you chill out a little and re-read the conversation, you will understand that I was actually using him as an example of what a show bred AST would love to be. Nothing wrong with him being a show dog. Nothing wrong with you liking show dogs. Just try to understand that there is a difference in dogs according to their breeding. You simply cannot have the total dog without breeding for it intentionally.
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 11:21 am

goodpost

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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 11:38 am

Well while the ast purpose may have changed and they are now a show dog bred primiarily for looks. I would say an amstaff today could also be bred as a working dog. By taking a game bred apbt or working dog and breeding that back into a show dog and so on you def create yourself a line of working amstaffs. Who is to say that does not go on now? I see alot of pedigree's with amstaff mixed in. The breeding program has alot to do with it. I would never say that an amstaff could not perform to the standards of their cousin the apbt. JMO
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 1:12 pm

You dont have to tell me what the APBT original purpose was, and of course I understand that it still goes on today, but NOT EVERY APBT was bred specifically for fighting back then and the same goes now. The dogs were used as Working Dogs as well as fighters. Not all breeders are still looking to produce pit champions, and I wouldnt support one that was. Breeders are taking these dogs and focusing/redirecting their programs to other abilities. They are focusing in on the Working ability that these dogs were originated off of from bullbaiting to catch work to land protection. I would agree that for the most part ASTs and APBTs are bred completely different nowadays BUT you are crazy to think that a breeding program cant put out an AmStaff that could rip up an APBT in the box or in any other kind of work. My dog does not come from AST lines, as most of those are ONLY show dogs, and when they are bred like that I can see how their drive would be lost, making it a lessor dog without function. My dog, however, is Completely functional not only in the show ring but with his genes can be an absolute beast in WP, or any line of work, if I choose to get more involved than just the backyard pulling we do now.
I believe the difference between an AST and APBT, for the most part, is its functionality. The APBT shows drive, loyalty, athleticism, and intelligence that is second to none. THAT is why I own them, NOT to just have a "pretty" dog or "steal" the name as you imply. I dont want, nor do I have, "just a show dog" that has zero drive and zero purpose. I want, and have, a dog that is highly driven, extremely athletic, and completely functional coming from APBT lines.

Do I want an ugly dog that can win in the box? NO, that has ABSOLUTELY ZERO function to me.
Do I want an extremely functional with high drive etc that happens to be good looking? YES that is functional to me.

Can your game dog murder my dog in the box? YES, most likely, although I will never find out.
Can my dog outperform your game dog in WP? YES, most likely, that is what my dog has been bred to do.

Same breed, same charecteristics, different purpose, different results.


If your theory is that you need fighters all over your pedigree to be an APBT, then I dont have much of a case to make against you, but you also will never convince me of that either. How close in the pedigree do you need fighters, actual proven fighters, to be accepted in this day? You must fight your dogs by your comment "To tell me that a WP dog is just as much "pit bull" as a dog who has worked his ass off in the box just proves to me that you're more interested in the name and not so much in the breed" or else I could say, by your own theory, YOUR dogs are not worthy to be called APBT. And by that theory a huge number of APBTs are not "worthy" of the title, whether they come from game lines or not. So UNLESS you are fighting your dogs, and if you are then you are a true scumbag no matter where you find it to be accepted, then who really has the less functional dog here? The one whos breeding program has focused on functional work that can be used in todays society OR the dog bred for fighting that doesnt even get fought?

If you dont like me calling my dog and APBT, too bad. Am I claiming to have a "game bred' bulldog? No not at all, but my dog is FAR from an AST show dog that knows nothing more than how to prance around a show ring. I have a working bred APBT, not AST, and until there is yet another breed that breaks down "game bred" and "working bred" APBTs then there really isnt much argument in my eyes. I accept the entire history of this breed and understand that because of the pit is why they have so many of the great traits it has, BUT it is also possible to keep those exact traits alive in the dog while directing a breeding program towards a more practical modern day usage to create a top-notch working dog with modern day purpose.


Last edited by MPRO112 on Sat 20 Sep 2008, 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 1:58 pm

Very Good Posting BTW welcome MPRO112 goodpost welcome
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PostSubject: Re: THE APBT AND THE AMSTAFF ARE THEY THE SAME DOG   Sat 20 Sep 2008, 5:24 pm

The only thing the pitbull was bred for other than fighting, back in the day, was breeding....

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