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Sadieblues
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PostSubject: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 5:09 am

Ok so I am thinking about the whole game dog thing ... I have a hard time believing that even though a dog is bred from game lines and is highly DA could be enough alone to make a true game dog in the pit .... I feel although I don't know for sure that there must be some behind the scene training other than conditioning that goes into dogfighting. While I am sure Dog aggression and a high prey drive helps. I don't believe that those things alone would make a champion fighter without some sort of training behind it I just can't see a dog fresh who has never been fought be rolled or matched and rip apart another dog it's first time without some kind of training to do that. Also I have heard some people say that they have seen game bred puppies as young as a few weeks old try to kill other puppies in the litter. I find it hard to believe that a puppy could come out vicious ready to kill unless some bad breeding was behind it. Just my thoughts feel free to comment. LOL


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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 5:30 am

Well, the pups that I saw that were tearing each other up were bred for the purpose of being fought in Central Mexico. They condition them here in the summer and they can fight to the death down there. Messed up right? Gameness is something that a breeder of the old day and todays underground population breed for though. It's genetically implanted in the APBTs brain to continue no matter the cost and that's what folks like me find so admirable about the breed. As far as training goes, they either have the game instinct or they don't, hot and cold, and if they're hot they roll and roll and roll and roll untill the handler believes that they are ready to make them some money. This is what bait dogs are used for T, and I can say this from my own experience....each time they fight they get better.



Edit: Just to clarify, I've never fought dogs and never would. I love animals way too much to put them through that kinda sh*t. I have had scuffles in my own yard.... Just comes with the territory when you own real APBTs.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 7:00 am

No, being "game" and being "DA' are to totally different things.
With a few exceptions, ALL dogs are DA very few are game. A game dog is simply willing to fight to its death.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 10:02 am

Skills will always require honing no matter what. Natural ability is just the foundation. Look how hard the best athletes practice and train in their particular sport.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 12:39 pm

Quote :
It's genetically implanted in the APBTs brain

that would eliminate your theory of the giraffe right
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 2:27 pm

Ok so I understand the difference between game and d/a ... But in your opinion what does the gameness trait mean to you? To me it would mean a dog that is very determined strong willed and extreme dog aggression? But here again out of all the dogs seized from MV you saw the rescuer's say when they entered the room to see the dogs for the first time many of them were NOT dog aggressive at all. So that would make me believe that there is probably some extensive training drugs and abuse that would go into making a dog fight to the extreme that it would endure as much as it would to win. I am sure that instinctively and through breeding you have a good foundation but what percentage of that is actually the determining factor in whether a dog has what it takes to become a champion dogfighter without the use of training and drugs?
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 3:53 pm

To me, the gameness trait means, that if I put my dog in the box it will fight until it can't anymore. Now can you take that same dog somewhere where there are other dogs, and it not try to fight every single one? Yes, you can. The dog is always going to want to please you, so if you have it somewhere that is a different environment, it may act different. I'm not sure what percentage, but I'm going to say that it's a low percentage, because I have seen documentaries of dogfighting, and many of the 'dogmen' had made statements of going through a lot of dogs, to get that 1 champion.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 3:55 pm

Right I saw that on last nights episode they did comment and say dogger's are lucky if they can get at least 1 champion out of an entire litter. Very interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 4:01 pm

NesOne wrote:
To me, the gameness trait means, that if I put my dog in the box it will fight until it can't anymore. Now can you take that same dog somewhere where there are other dogs, and it not try to fight every single one? Yes, you can. The dog is always going to want to please you, so if you have it somewhere that is a different environment, it may act different. I'm not sure what percentage, but I'm going to say that it's a low percentage, because I have seen documentaries of dogfighting, and many of the 'dogmen' had made statements of going through a lot of dogs, to get that 1 champion.

So kind of like in a pit a dog knows why it's there LOL so to speak ... and with it's owner there egging him or her on it's desire to defeat and please becomes so overwhelming that the dog will fight to the death? I still think there has to be some training involved maybe the dogger has small yard scratches and things like that before he or she determines that the dog is ready for the ring?
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 4:28 pm

Well yes, training has to be involved, and it all starts when they are litter mates, and they grab them by their necks, and face them against each other. That's where it starts, and how they probably pick out the aggressor. But I think that as long as the dog has great endurance, that's all he/she really needs.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Mon 25 Aug 2008, 7:19 pm

Shades wrote:
Quote :
It's genetically implanted in the APBTs brain

that would eliminate your theory of the giraffe right



Um, no! As usual you don't listen to what I tell you so don't bother bringing up an old topic, I think you were pretty fresh out of your shed at that point too. But just to humor you B, the answer is no..... Humans made Pit Bulls, duh!

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 3:28 am

I read this thread earlier and I had nothing to say on it so I just lurked.

Until I came across this video.

In regards to the original post, yes, some dogs are so 'game' or just so damn DA, that little reinforcement needs to occur.

This is not the first time that I've heard of this. Dogs so DA that they rip each other apart at just MONTHS of age.

These are Kangal Dogs. (If you don't think you like it, don't look. Though there is no blood, it's kind of sad. Sad )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BOPT9CbgQM

Staff Edit: Yeah there is some blood at the end
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 3:47 am

This video makes an excellent point Cleo_APBT, that some dogs just have that bred into them. Now at first I saw this and video and thought this is just normal puppy play. I got further into it and realized that these pups are conditioning for their intended prupose. It's amazing watching these little guys have it out too, they look and fight like the adult versions of themselves, sad really. Those poor pups have a rough life ahead of them if they are indeed still alive at this point.
But it goes back to my original point, people started selectively breeding the DA and game traits into their programs and it's gonna take several generations to breed it out. The funny thing is that it's most likely going to be bred out by the BYBs out there who breed for little purpose other than $$$. Funny how that works, a trait that most people don't want is going to be taken care of by the people that those other people don't want breeding in the first place. Hmmmmm......... Now I've really got myself thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 3:57 am

NesOne wrote:
Well yes, training has to be involved, and it all starts when they are litter mates, and they grab them by their necks, and face them against each other. That's where it starts, and how they probably pick out the aggressor. But I think that as long as the dog has great endurance, that's all he/she really needs.

Have you ever heard of a reputable old-school dogman that did this or advocated doing it? I've seen people doing that crap on YouTube, but the reaction when posted on a gamedog board was outrage. Nobody seemed to think it was a good idea. The things that I've read have always sided with letting a dog get some maturity before you go trying to find out about him, and most err on the side of waiting if he's not ready when you would normally school him. Doesn't seem like shoving two pups together would show you anything, and I've never heard of anyone suggesting that it be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 4:37 am

I can agree with that Lindsay, seems like (and I'm not advocating fighting) this sort of thing would be the underline cause for an unstable temperament, that it would create a stone cold killer. I think this is where the actaul APBT man biters come from, JMO

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 10:02 am

I wonder if inbreeding/line breeding causes the severe DA ... Or if it's something else within the breeding program that would bring out the worst DA in a dog. Do you think old dogger's bred for da? Is that even possible? Just asking question's as they come to mind. I have no breeding knowledge so it would be interesting to know how a breeder would breed for specific traits. Do they take 2 of the most DA aggressive dogs and breed them in hopes of passing that on to the litter?
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 11:53 am

bahamutt99 wrote:
Have you ever heard of a reputable old-school dogman that did this or advocated doing it? I've seen people doing that crap on YouTube, but the reaction when posted on a gamedog board was outrage. Nobody seemed to think it was a good idea. The things that I've read have always sided with letting a dog get some maturity before you go trying to find out about him, and most err on the side of waiting if he's not ready when you would normally school him. Doesn't seem like shoving two pups together would show you anything, and I've never heard of anyone suggesting that it be done.

Nope, I haven't. But as you mentioned you have seen it done, and so have I.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 4:03 pm

Sadieblues wrote:
I wonder if inbreeding/line breeding causes the severe DA ... Or if it's something else within the breeding program that would bring out the worst DA in a dog. Do you think old dogger's bred for da? Is that even possible? Just asking question's as they come to mind. I have no breeding knowledge so it would be interesting to know how a breeder would breed for specific traits. Do they take 2 of the most DA aggressive dogs and breed them in hopes of passing that on to the litter?

It's no different than breeding for any other trait. It is done all the time by so called "breeders" who confuse aggression with ability. An over-aggressive dog is no different than an overly aggressive human. They are both most likely cowards when it comes down to going the distance.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Tue 26 Aug 2008, 4:56 pm

NesOne wrote:
Nope, I haven't. But as you mentioned you have seen it done, and so have I.

Yeah, I saw douchebags doing it on YouTube. Probably the same little jerks that do the gunpowder and hot pepper crap, too. moon
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PostSubject: Re: Game Dogs   Thu 04 Sep 2008, 10:18 am

Game to me is no matter what 2 broke legs eat up after an hour of being on bottom the dog is still screaming doin every thing it can to scratch
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